Mosley Not So Mad After All?
Written by George Katinger · December 16, 2007
As one of team McLaren’s staunchest defenders during their recent ?troubles? and an unabashed Max basher, do I now owe Mr. Mosley an apology? I think the answer, as most things in F1, is an unequivocal ?maybe?.
The stunning turn around in McLaren’s continuing defense and protestations of innocence can be taken in one of two ways. Either they are guilty of using Ferrari IP as found by the evidence in the examination of their 2008 entry, or they are worn by the process and need to end it all and move on.
As a person who bought into Ron?s ?We are McLaren we don?t cheat? approach I am shattered at their admittance to having Ferrari data incorporated into their 2008 challenger. As a team that has been strapped with a monumental financial impact and that has continued to protest their innocence, I find the turn around at once suspicious and damning.
Ron Dennis has been the point of defense on all these matters, including his public protestations of his personal and corporate integrity as the foremost important things in his life. The team?s public apology is the most humbling thing I?ve read in recent memory, short only of Nixon?s inevitable resignation in 1974. As far as I’m concerned both are criminally culpable and Ron should go quietly from the team into the night.
As the team principal Ron either knew about the Ferrari data getting built into his car, or he should have done a better job of finding out just how much Ferrari IP was available to the team for consideration. Either way it comes down to Ron’s responsibility. He failed, he should go, and it’s as simple as that. You can?t take the glory over the team?s successes and sidestep penalties for their failures. In addition to their fines, 2007 exclusion, and public humiliation via their mea culpa letter, Ron needs to be sacrificed as part of the healing process. His protestations of ‘I will not retire’ are symptomatic of his unwillingness to acknowledge reality, which may have contributed to McLaren?s current state of affairs. The McLaren majority ownership should push him out the door if he is unwilling to fall on his own sword. So much for the damning aspect.
As for my suspicions, they are rooted in Max Mosley?s sudden acceptance of the turn around and the depth of the inquiry looking for Ferrari IP. Why would Max suddenly accept this apology and cancel the hearing slated for February 14, 2008? On one hand you could argue that he did it for the good of the sport and putting all of the spying issues in the rear view mirror of the FIA. Or he recognized that a further appeal of the processes used to examine and penalize McLaren and Renault are so obviously inconsistent that the FIA would be embarrassed and found at fault.
Think about it: McLaren are fined a monumental amount for suspicions of having another teams IP. Now they allegedly have proof and the FIA are supposed to drop all further penalty considerations? In their latest examinations of McLaren data the FIA experts (according to McLaren) accessed over 75 million pages of documents and data. And they spent a day in Renaults shop and never looked at their 2007 car for any McLaren IP. Not a fair approach to things, according to the standard that the FIA established for McLaren and Ferrari. It reeks of a double standard and a cover up. And as guilty as Ron may be for mismanaging his team, Max is as guilty for mismanaging the FIA approach to solving the problem.
So where does all the above leave my apology decision on Max? He was correct in his dogged pursuit of McLaren in the search for Ferrari IP. So all of the folks who accused Max of conducting a witch hunt owe him an apology. Sorry Max, I was wrong. Having said that his imposition of the McLaren penalty and other meddling in the 2007 season warrants our scorn, and has earned him his own ticket out of the sport. His cursory examination of the Renault affair is further damaging to the sport and as I stated above probable in this so called settlement.
So I am sorry Max, you were correct in your pursuit of McLaren and Ron Dennis. Please accept my apology and don?t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
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I too have been a dedicated Max basher (& will continue to be) but what makes me cringe about this saga - & not overlooking the guilt of Ron/McLaren & their nefarious actions - is the almost unlimited resources that were thrown at the McLaren investigation & yet Renault got a cursory once over.
Has Max’s zealotry in his pursuit of McLaren been justified? Well yes! Look at how it all came out in the final wash.? As for Ron, he is in denial & the ultimate proof of that is his signatures absence on the bottom of McLaren?s groveling apology. Ron?s total failure to accept his own role in this mess is similar to the total lack of acceptance being demonstrated by Conrad Black! There?s a thought Ron, Conrad & their egos in the same room.
This brilliant piece of writing by Frank Hopkinson at PF1 suggests McLaren?s admission is driven by remorse, rather solely by commercial reality. They have lost one mega Spanish sponsor & are finding it impossible to approach new ones. The hiring of F1 magazine staffer, Matt Bishop, as head of PR is almost labeled as spin doctor cum FIA lobbyist!
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3261_2976784,00.html
In the final analysis I have no sympathy for Dennis, his tearful Sliverstone ?My life & breath goes into this team? is b/s. Further his statement at the WMSC that the team had nothing wrong (it was all Coughlan!) & that he did not want to see his life?s work destroyed was self serving crap.
As a side point, I have just finished reading David Coulthard?s some what tedious autobiography. He gives one astonishing insight into the ?man? that is Ron Dennis, apparently regarding the staff at McLaren, Ron told David, ?I don?t shake hands with employees?. As Coulthard says in his book ?Make of that what you will?.
After scrutinizing 75 million sheets of McLaren information/data, it was inevitable that the FIA were going to come up with something “unique” to Ferrari. The FIA could make up whatever they wanted to suit a preordained conclusion, and McLaren would have no course but to take another exclusion, fight this action in civil court, and thus go bankrupt. I previously hoped they had the financial resources to fight this to the bitter end, but I guess it takes more than hope, as in hard cash.
And regardless of my prior beliefs McLaren have “confessed” to the “crimes”, so everything else is moot.
I may have lost my belief in McLaren’s ability to separate facts from fiction, but I CANNOT confer a new level of integrity in the FIA or Max.
If dennis the menace had not declared Mclaren to be “squeeky clean” I might have a little sympathy for his plight. But being at the sharp end of the team means only one one thing, you must know whats going on beneath you(the ones he wont shake hands with) or the team will perish. I hope every Mclaren sponsor will send a message to F1 community that such arrogence(or is dennis the menace still claiming ignorance?) will not be tolerated. As you say George “Ron should go quietly from the team into the night” and “don?t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out”. It’s the only way the team can recover from the penalties to a once great team and the disgrace he has brought to F1.
Maybe with dennis the menace out to pasture Kovalainen will have an equal chance next season.
My reference to not letting the door hitting him in the ass was for Max. He should go as well as Ron.
I choose not to apologize to Max on the grounds that he is NOT doing the same to Renault that he did to McLaren, thus making it a McLaren witch hunt. If he applied even justice to both teams, THEN I would owe him an apology, but he didn’t, so he’s just an ass with a fancy title.
Max owes the sporting world an apology. Ron owes the sporting world an apology. Ron and Max both deserve a swift kick in the ass for the way they have behaved.
I choose to be bitter about how everything was mishandled from the very first race of 2007. And I will stay that way as long as the afore mentioned ass clowns remain employed by any sporting organization.
There. I managed to use the word ass in every paragraph. It’s the little things that make me happy.
Oh Tim, you don?t understand the difference between McLaren?s crime & Renault?s alleged one. The distinction is that only took the documents for ?personal use?. Here it?s all explained by the FIA in the link below.
BTW, he is not a dodgy individual, Renault?s tech chief, Bob Bell (his employer), has attested to his good character. The documents were actually for his children to use as scrap paper & he only took them to the office as an afterthought. Why can?t you see this man innocence??
It?s a good job Max is running the FIA instead of you. At least Max can see through the clutter & deliver justice to this innocent man. If somebody like you were the sports administrator we would have a witch hunt on our hands.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64423
On a whim I did a wikipedia search for Ron Dennis. I was keen to see how the latest news had been recorded at this “questionable” site.
Look what I found. LOL
“While the evidence of McLaren indeed having such data was clear, its value to and use by McLaren was legally questionable. Similarly, Dennis was vindicated personally; indeed, so keen was he to cooperate with the investigation and protect his own and McLaren’s fundamental reputation for integrity, that he personally informed the FIA of new evidence which was ultimately used to convict the team.
In Alonso vs. Hamilton conflict, Dennis has always said to help his two drivers equally. However, after the Chinese Grand Prix, he said “We weren’t racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando.” The Times said his comments “made a nonsense of his claims to be treating his drivers equitably in the World Championship run-in.”[10]
A petition has been established on the British Government’s Downing Street Website to ask her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II to grant a knighthood to Ron Dennis for his services to motor sport, business and technology”
10 bucks says Ron still gets a knighthood! Let’s face it at least half of the recipients are crooks. The other half are underpaid public servants who get a gold watch & a “Sir” before their name instead of a decent retirement payout. :-)
Yes I knew who you used the door hitting him in the ass comment for George. Haven’t you noticed by now the way I use your own words to rile you yet?
I haven’t had this much fun sticking it to a Mclaren fan since……never. Thanks for the great forum to vent on, lets hope we can keep it up for another year. With the “freeze” on Ferrari “ideas” on next years car and no world champion to fine tune their car they may slip back a few spots on the grid. Where do you expect Ferrari to be on the grid next year?
My estimate puts them in the top two, just who will be the other top 2?
Sorry mo, like Tim I think I’m almost beyond riling on the McLaren FIAsco, just left with a severe dose of bitterness.
What do I look forward to in F1 next year? Ferrari, run by Italians, falling on their collective asses. And no one to blame but themselves as Lewis Hamilton wins the driver’s and McLaren the constructor’s title….by a wide margin. THEN listen to the tifosi wail and shriek!
“THEN listen to the tifosi wail and shriek!”
Sadly, that’s what would happen if McLaren swept both titles. Although, I personally would like to see Heikki take the drivers title ( if it has to be a McLaren driver ). You know which golden boy I’d like to see take a second championship, instead. But, I would like to see BMW Sauber take the constructors, just because that would be the less tainted of the top three.
You know, McLaren and Renault have given us some pretty good excuses this year to use when getting into trouble. I think if I were to rob a bank ( hypothetically ), I would use Renaults defense. “I went into the bank with every intention of withdrawing money only from my account, but when I got there, I accidentally withdrew the money out of everyone elses accounts instead. Therefore, since the INTENT wasn’t there, I did nothing wrong, and should not be arrested. Oh yeah, and I get to keep the money, as well.”
Hey Tim, just how is Ferrari tainted?
Because they stood up to defend themselfs against a “squeeky clean” team who not only lied about their “not benefitting from stolen documents” but was found to have used that info on next years cars too?
So that means if you own a bank and someone steals money from you then you would be tainted for seeking justice?
But George has a good point about being run by Italians, the superteam has been alomst completly dismantled and now they are left to their pre-superteam status of the 90s. So I agree about a certain amount of “tifosi wail and shriek” being possible next season, but I think it will take a few more years to fall to the level of say a Williams or Honda. But Tim has it right about who we would like to see at the sharp end next, Sauber/bmw (small caps intended), even I, a longtime Ferrari fan would like to see the Sauber name as world champions.
George, the LH sensation may have a difficult time of it next year because of the “freeze” of development of stolen “ideas”. Good thing they retained an experienced test driver to help the lads get around the track.
Mo said:-”Hey Tim, just how is Ferrari tainted?”
Where would you like us to start?? Basically????. from the 97 arrival of Brawn!
Ferrari has over the years treated the rules with contempt, the difference being not only did they get away with it but the FIA covered for the bastards! In fairness to Todt he never went around like Ron Dennis promoting himself as a paragon of virtue & integrity. Regardless, if Justice Mosley can say the spy matter is closed, I?m all for putting 07 in the past & concentrating on the positives for 08.
Next year has me fascinated, has Renault conquered the inherent nature of the Bridgestone?s? Will McLaren?s aborted development programme stem their dominance? Can the all new Brawn-free Ferrari keep up the pace? Will BMW continue its consistent improvement & be a race challenger? Is Williams a dark horse podium getter? Can Red Bull build a reliable Adrian Newhey speed machine? Will ProDrive get a grid slot for 09? Will perennial underachiever Toyota appear anymore foolish than in previous seasons of overspending to under whelm?
Beware Of The Taint! I’ve always wanted to say that.
Don’t get me wrong, Mo, I’m still a fan of Ferrari. I just don’t claim ?ber status any more. It’s just that there was a taint to their winning* the constructors championship this year, and because of the “freeze” of certain McLaren development for next year, there will be a taint on the ‘08 championship. The taint being the dreaded “what if” factor. That’s always going to be in the backs of peoples’ heads.
As I’ve stated before, Ron Dennis brought all of this upon himself by not coming clean the instant he got a whiff of impropriety. But, having said that, Ferrari really dug the knife in sideways after finding out about the spying. So much so, that it left a bad taste in my mouth. With the way Luca di behaved, that taste got even worse.
Now, on with the answers to Peter’s questions. I don’t know! Well… I do know the answer to the last question. We all know the answer to that one. Toyota needs to give up the manufacturing of the chassis, and just supply engines. There’d be a lot less tears that way. And the jury’s still out on Honda. Can they produce a winning car that doesn’t require a whacky wet race to do it in?
I have but one question….How long does it take and how many people does it take to check 75 million pages???
Thank you John (And welcome to our discussions)! And compare that to John Whiting spending a day, 24 FRICKIN’ HOURS (if he didn’t sleep), in the Renault shop and rendering a judgement that Renault have no Mac IP in their car. Doesn’t compute, does it?
Can I now retract my apology to that old sod Max?
Just as I am proud of my ability to be objective about Ron (damn his racing soul to hell) and McLaren, I am more impressed by the loyal followers of Maranello who can see the culpability of Ferrari as well as Mac’s. And I’m not talkin’ about you mo!
The corruption of the Stepneygate affair began with a Ferrari employee….one Nigel Stepney. Remember him? An F1 player, snubbed and passed over by his own team, reaching out to another similarly corrupt individual in McLaren, Mike Coughlan. May both their racing souls be damned to hell as well as Rons!
Oh yeah, one more thought. ANY team, whether Ferrari or McLaren, who can allow a departing (or current) employee to leave with reams of documents or terrabytes of data deserve what they get.
A rather overly simple conclusion to a complex problem, but I hope ya’ll catch my drift.
You know, that 75 million pages comment was worming around in the back of my brain, but didn’t really come forward until John asked his question. If one person spent only 1 minute per page, the time would be astronomical. But, if 100 people spent 30 seconds per page… it would still be astronomical.
Maybe they had it all on computer and they just did a search for “Ferrari Secret Information”. If I were a racing organization, that’s how I would label all of my ill-gotten info. I’d also take my money to the bank in little sacks with dollar signs on them. But that’s just me. I’m weird that way.
George, you know the way I feel about Ferrari, and how they conduct themselves, has been a long time in the making. Remember how I was when I first started posting here. Piss and vinegar comes to mind. I would love for the day to come when we could argue ( respectfully ) about our favorite teams without having to feel dirty doing it.
George, you’re a McLaren fan? I never could tell…
At least we all know where mo ron stands.
Hey George,
Can you see the smile on my face?
I’m still curious as to whether Mercedes HQ is happy with Ron being the public face of their participation in the pinnacle of motorsport. Think about it? At the start of the spy saga Norbert Haug would have asked Ron if there was any truth to the allegations & would have been given an adamant NO! Then on at least three occasions Ron would have had to back to Haug & ?qualify?? his denial. The board back in Germany must have reservations about Ron Dennis & his bizarre psyche. Only problem is, how do you buy-out & then jettison somebody who doesn?t want to go? As well as avoid it all being very public, because the Brit ?Hamilton is the Messiah? media would be all over this like flies on shit.
Hamilton would go as far as throwing his support behind his patron publicly. I can hear the dear boy?s father (who would crawl through broken glass if there was a person holding a microphone on the other side) now; ?My lad?s benefactor is being shafted by the evil Huns in Stuttgart?????????poor Norbert, maybe he can just push Ron under a bus.
Doug said:
“Hey George,
Can you see the smile on my face”?
Under the current circumstances I can’t believe your restraint Doug.
Peter is right again!! Imagine that, twice in one week!!
I think Boss Haug is in it as deep as dennis the menace. Remember the statements he made after the first hearing?
Mercedes being “completely convinced about Mclaren’s innocence” or some such nonsense. Does anybody believe Mercedes/Boss Haug didnt know about the documents with the amazing performance they had “magically’ attained on the new Bridgestones after last years debacle?
So why would they ever admit to the knowledge and just let poor dennis the menace take the fall.
My opinion (which I know is highly regarded around here) is Mercedes has it’s fingers deep into the Mclaren system and might have even known about the documents before “dennis the menace who won’t shake his employees hands” found out about them. Seems Mclaren and probably Mercedes has just as many “nigel stepneys” in their past and probably present.
My biggest question is about the “3 ferrari systems” that they will put on developmental hold and then the sudden dropping the second inspection. Could anyone, much less Mad Max, trust dennis the menace to keep his word?
I think there’s a conspiracy against Ferrari. Like there has been since Ferrari’s 2nd championship in a row in 01. All of the rule changes to try and slow MS. Seems all of you Mclaren lovers have very short memories, or at least very selective ones.
Gee Mo, I’m going to take the opposite view when it comes to Haug. As a Mercedes employee he is there to protect Daimler’s considerable investment in F1. I find it virtually impossible to beleive he was in the loop regarding the ill gotten data. My guess is that on something like this McLaren staff would never risk telling an “outsider” for fear of a Stuttgart backlash.
On the other hand, I could be naive & the whole thing is rotten to the core. You & I will probably never know the full story. My gut says that even Dennis didn’t know initially, however, he found out damn quick after the copy shop informant told Ferrari, from that moment on he has tried to bury it or water it down. Dennis is a liar……….anyway he is good company; Todt could lie straight in bed! A pox be upon all their houses.
I would find it hard to beleive Mercedes had no knowledge of the 3 systems on next years car considering their investment and image at stake. Maybe it wasnt made exactly clear where the info came from for these systems, but considering how integral all “systems” are on any modern car much less an F1 machine it had to be conveyed to the engine room eventually.
This whole “control ecu” mclaren is developing combined with the blatant lying done from the top to the bottom is starting to look like the biggest conspiracy ever. How could the FIA ban the team developing its ecu from competition?
Ferrari had to defend its propietary info with every means necessary to just hope to have an equal footing when the secret programs mclaren builds into the ecu are utilized when mclaren cant use someone’s “ideas” to gain an advantage. They definately needed to get rid of Alonso becuase he might spill the beans on the secret ecu mapping used during quali on LH’s car and not his.
Okay mo, time to explode your “they changed the rules to penalize Ferari” myth. Whenver the FIA steps on other teams to “assist” Ferrari, it’s at the expense of a team. When they changed the rules to save TV viewership due to Ferrari dominace, it changed for EVERYBODY. Just like the latest BS with 10 year engine freeze and common ECU’s. It effects EVERYBODY, not just one team.
So take your Ferrari loving attitude into the Xmas holiday and be thankful Maxine is still protecting Maranello and exhibiting the bias he and Luca love to flash over and over and over….
“When they changed the rules to save TV viewership due to Ferrari dominace, it changed for EVERYBODY.”
The only problem there, is, that teams like Williams were pleading to the FIA to stop changing the rules every year, because Ferrari were the only ones good enough at the time to roll with those punches. Every year the FIA thought they had a way to equalize the cars i.e. slow Ferrari down, but all they did was slow the other teams.
Has there been a bias towards Ferrari on certain issues? Yes. Is everything the FIA does an attempt to help Ferrari? No. Will the FIA ever be unbiased? Who knows? They won’t be as long as Mad Max is in charge.
As I have said, get rid of Max, Ron and Jean and we’d be on our way to a better sport. At least that’s my hope.
Right on Tim, only thing is if they rid the sport of these characters who would we/me have to bitch about?
I’m sure other A-holes would step up to fill the void!
how about nominating Tony George as FIA president? that would straighten everything out. maybe he could enlist Kevin Kalkhoven as one of his cronies.