Why Hamilton Should Have Been Penalized, Not Alonso And McLaren
Written by George Katinger · August 18, 2007
The fallout from the Hungarian GP qualifying contretemps with Alonso and Hamilton continues.
feedmef1.com: Feature: Why The FIA Were Wrong To Penalise Mclaren
With McLaren’s appeal of the stewards decision scheduled for September 19, the facts of the qualifying debacle need to be clearly understood; as well as the roles of the various players in that comic opera.
The feedmef1 article presents a clear summary of the circumstances, as well as possible interpretations of the acts of the key players. I think it may also present a clear basis of McLaren’s appeal. It would be a good thing for the court of appeals to establish that penalties need to be imposed based on facts, not on what the stewards thought may have happened at the time, or speculation as to the team’s motives or strategies.
An interesting read, considering there is little racing news available.
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20 Responses to “Why Hamilton Should Have Been Penalized, Not Alonso And McLaren”
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I am the only person on the face of the earth that understands why McLaren was penalized. They LIED to the stewards. Let me say that again. They LIED to the stewards. One more time, but in Spanish. Mintieron a los administradores.
They attempted to deceive the stewards in order to keep Alonso from being penalized. That cannot be allowed to happen in F1. If Ferrari did it, I would be saying the same thing. Just as if Ferrari is found to be lying in the Stepneygate fiasco, I would expect them to be penalized.
McLaren lied to the stewards, and somehow, the world is unable to understand why the stewards were quite put out with them. Silly stewards. Don’t you know that you’re supposed to accept anything McLaren says as truth, even when you’re presented with real evidence that they’re guilty? And even when they are found to be guilty, you’re supposed to just shrug and get over it?
I realize this is just what you expected me to type, George, and I didn’t disappoint, but people have got to understand what really happened. And that “news” story really didn’t present ANY facts. Just someones flawed and looped logic.
Now tim, you can’t dispute the facts as described, can you? I mean the description of the way the events occured.
What I found truly intriguing is the comparison to Massa, relative to the team “allowing” him to run out of gas. Why isn’t that considered obstructing a driver’s chance of a better Q position? Oh yeah, one is a deliberate act (McLaren) and Ferrari’s was an accident? Yeah, when was the last time ANY driver ran out of gas during qualifying????
Or the fact that Hamilton ADMITTED to not only holding up Alonso but Raikkonen as well? And deliberately! He’s the manipulative little scumbag in this entire affair, not the current WC who reacted, repeat, reacted, poorly to an opportunity that presented itself (holding up aforesaid scumbag) at the spur of the moment.
Relative to LYING to the stewards I think it’s still perception as opposed to fact, and I have to, reluctantly, respect Ron for attempting to protect both his drivers, the cuirrent WC and the previously mentioned scumbag. And no one else lies in F1, just Ron??? Ferrari were totally transparent over Scumi’s Monaco parking incident last year? Were they docked any team points?? Get real my friend.
Regardless of talent potential, realized or expected, Hamilton has revealed an ego beyond anything justifiable at this point in his career.
His ability to play the media is beyond anything I’ve witnessed of late.
He really should go to Ferrari next year, his desired cult of his own personality can be realized there, as opposed to McLaren. Ditch him at seasons end Ron, with or without a title, while you have the chance.
No one wants Ron to retire more than me, but if the choice is Hamilton or Ron, I’ll gladly take Ron and let the little scumbag make his way on some other team. I’d really like to see what he would accomplish without Ron’s and McLaren’s changing of his diaper and stroking his emerging ego. He may be leading the points chase but he’s a piece of dirt not worthy of sticking to Alonso’s shoe!
Wait until tomorrow when I have more time to tell you how I really feel!
I could care less if Ron lied to the stewards…It is his freaking team. Would you like to see Ron put Pedro in the seat for 1 race to punish Hamilton for the outcome of the weekend? This is precisely why the whole thing is insane. Let the team sort it out. I’d love to see Pedro in the car showing just how great the car is as he fights for a podium in a Mclaren. Stewards gonna serve up another penalty if Ron sits his driver out for a single round?
This happened, only because it was the wee hours of the morning, and the stewards needed some rest. Had they waited till morning…the penalty’s would not have been given. Thank a persistant Anthony I’d say.
Poor Fernando. The team doesn’t love him, they favor LH. McLaren’s based in Britain, so its fans favor LH. Massa hits him deliberately. The world’s against him. Pout, pout, moan, moan. I hope he really did go whining and whinging back to Fat Flavio, and I hope Renault takes him back. A ROOKIE is going to take his world championship away from him — and after he does, it’ll be Lewis, chased by Massa, a whining Spaniard, the Mumbling Finn (if he can stay away from booze and strip clubs), and maybe Heidfeld, for the forseeable future.
Please allow me to shed some light on Alonso’s possible perception of his situation.
He is the reigning back to back WC, and he came to a team that won how many races last year? That would be zero, nada, niente, zippo, zilch? And I am sure Ron, not expecting the performance from the little scumbag, gave Alonso overt assurances of support. Now TLS (the little scumbag) drives the wheels off the car and is leading the points race, and turns from the “aw shucks, I’m just glad to be here” kid into a media manipulating selfish little bastard no longer willing to listen to team strategy requests.
If I were Alonso I’d do a Senna and punch his lights out, then write it off to his latin temperment.
If only someone had pulled a Senna on Alonso sometime in the last couple of years when he was endangering the lives of other drivers with his little in-car temper tantrums, we wouldn’t be having most of the problems we are now. He’s a WLB (whining little bitch). The sport would do quite well without him.
As for facts, let’s see, would that be when WLB said he was only following orders, or when he said he was discussing which tires were put on his car, or when he said he was paying back Hamilton? Which one of those are fiction, because they can’t ALL be fact.
Then let’s talk about the expectations of the WLB. So, he expected to be driving a less than perfect car with a rookie teammate that he could dominate, but both those facts turned out to be false. The McLaren turned out to be fast and reliable, and the rookie turned out to be faster than the WLB. Those are the sweetest tasting tears I’ve ever savored. I hope he does go back to Renault and Piquet, Jr. turns out to be faster than WLB as well.
You want to talk about the Monaco incident again? OK. The stewards asked for telemetry from Ferrari, they got it. They asked for recordings of transmissions between Michael and the pit wall, they got it. As I recall, they did not lie to the stewards. It was all that info that got Michael hanged. End of story.
Now, let’s talk about Hamilton. Has his ego inflated? Yes. Tell me your head wouldn’t swell if your entire country started talking about you as if you were the second coming? I’m just hoping someone can pop that inflated head of his before he’s ruined. But, he is a product of Ronnie-boy. The man has had a hand in molding his career for a lot of years. One has to wonder what damage has already been done, and if it’s possible to salvage him? A clean break from Ron would do him some good.
I’m actually quite tired of discussing this subject, but come mid September, we won’t be able to escape it when the appeal takes place. Just count me as absent on that day. I’ll have something more important to attend to.
OK, I have one more thing. Hamilton did not hold Alonso up when Q3 started. He pulled away. In fact, WLB was going so slow that Kimi passed him. So, in what way did Hamilton hold up WLB? It’s possible that WLB manufactured this whole thing to make Hamilton look bad. He heard that Hamilton was being told let WLB through and decided to slow down to make it impossible for Hamilton to comply with the orders he was given.
There, I have presented my own facts. And they seem just as truthy as others presented elsewhere.
Now I’m done talkin’.
I really don’t want to keep picking on this scab of an issue, but since when is talking to the stewards and allegedly lying to them an offense worthy of losing team points? This is not a sworn deposition as in a court of law, is it?
And WHY are they being held accountable to stewards over a strictly team affair? It’s total nonsense and an artifice to dock McLaren and keep Ferrari in the constructor’s race.
Your last comment about LH slowing and FA slowing more is refuted by LH directly; he admitted not wanting to let FA by because Kimi would also get by.
Oh yeah, Alonso has earned his right to be a WLB, he’s a two time WC. Hamilton is not. Regarding LH being tutored by RD, I’m sure lesson one WAS NOT turn on the team and the team principals that supported and payed for your training. His attitude is summed up in three words: Self centered ingrate.
Before season’s end I hope we get to see them side by side on the starting grid, because I’m sure one of them will knock the other out of the race. At least Ferrari will have a chance to gain constructor’s points without the help of the stewards or the FIA.
the auther of the above report is quiet an insidious little twerp. What have you done to earn the right to bombast others, especially those who have given the Brits something to shout about, or is it because he is black and you possibly Spanish? Get a life and do something useful with it
I see LH as British first then black if I look real close and think about it. The remarks seem more about actions in a sport loved by many spectators then what the drivers look like or come from.
No Brian, no racist takes please. Nothing like that remotely in my very personal take on the entire Alonso-Hamilton face off. It’s your right to disagree and I’m not Spanish either.
And it’s not just me……see my latest posting for what the rest of the world is beginning to realize as well.
Well it’s sad day at FM when tim and I are in compete agreement.
Alonso lost some grid spaces for his baulk. “RON DENNIS” earned the points penalty for telling bald faced lies to the stewards. If he had explained the situation honestly i.e. I have two drivers at each others throats, one pulled a stunt on the track and the other pulled it in the pitlane, he would have gotten off completely. If Ron wants to lie to the referee when all the evidence points in the opposite direction, then so be it.
Not even Jean Todt would have tried that b/s with the stewards, had Schui pulled a similar stunt…and that is really saying something about how badly Ron handled this.
I could not disagree more Peter.
What was the team owner supposed to do, throw both his driver’s under the bus and have both demoted off the front row? He tried to make the best of a bad situation, If he didn’t defend his men you’d be calling him spineless!
All of this will be academic any way when Max’s merry band of FIA stooges disallows all of McLaren’s points for the year and gift Ferrari yet another championship won through chicanery and misdirection. And please, don’t use Ron’s sad situation to ascribe a moral superiority to “The Toad” when you KNOW nothing could be further from the “truth”. Be careful, the FM stewards may penalize your comment post points for “lying”!
This absolutely will turn into the F1 season from hell with only McLaren’s ashes to show. Can’t wait to read what Lewis will say when he loses a record rookie title when that happens! Don’t be surprised if Hamilton doesn’t use that as an excuse to jump ship for a load of Ferrari cash.
Regardless of what hapenned, I think this clearly demonstrated that our “sweet” LH is no angel and for Fernando, he should have not don what he did, but I am glad he did it so we can see what a weasil LH really is. All champions need to have not only skill, but also play the mind games and other tactics to gain an advantage. This is wht Kimi will never win a championship. he is a great and fast driver, but does not give a shit about that either. He just wants to go fast…
“What was the team owner supposed to do, throw both his driver’s under the bus and have both demoted off the front row?”
George, pleeese! Hamilton was not in trouble with the stewards & was NEVER going to be penalised. It was never a question of “defending” Alonso, you cant defend the indefensible. Ron should have told the stewards what happened i.e my guy blocked the pitbox deliberately, I will have to accept any punishment you award him (which was the grid place loss). But NOOOOOOOOO! Ron fed them a b/s story of countdowns & radio comms with engineers, & the stewards saw straight through it & hit him wear it hurts…constructors points.
Frankly I’m amazed this saga can be read in different ways, to me it seems cut & dry.
Fine Peter, the little scumbag was never in danger of demotion, but please explain to me why Alonso holding up a teammate is punishable by the stewards? It still makes no sense to me. You can call Ron’s convoluted explanation lying, I won’t.
And thank you for no further holier than thou Jean Todt references, I don’t think my stomach could take it, again!
“….but please explain to me why Alonso holding up a teammate is punishable by the stewards”
Because it’s the same as Schui parking it at Rascasse, it affected another drivers shot at pole.The fact that it is his teammate is irrelevant.
George? Have you been at the moonshine again? What are you saying? What, if Alonso had driven to the end of pitlane & blocked his teammate (or another driver) at the exit it would not deserve punishment.
Lewis holding his teamate up for a lap in the burn off stage is a different matter. Q3 “on track” is a free for all anyway.
I am astonished that three weeks after the event we are debating the crime.Far worse, Tim_s & I are agreeing on something….& that’s never happened before. :-)
Want to care to predict the outcome of the 15 point scandle?
I am 95% certain that the 15 points will be given back in a reversal of the stewards sleepless decision. Making decisions tired is as bad as making them drunk.
The only reason the stewards after 8 hours finally went with the wrong decision had to do with FEAR. LH is a big dollar fella now to the industry. Think Anthony maybe brought up the fact that the public and media would crucify the stewards if they let their initial decision of no penalty stand. If it were two red bull instead of the two Mclarens, there would have been no penalty. The decision was based on dollars, media preception, Anthonys whinning/fear mongering not on what was the correct thing to do. Since when does an easy decision take 8 hours to solve….If it were such an overtly ovious one it would have taken 2 hours, and there would not have been a reversal. Lets hope that LH is not untouchable going forward, because I 100% feel that anything remotely argueable in the rulebook will be swung to a LH bias. Just how far can LH push the envelope and not get smacked…I wait for the time when he has blocked just a wee bit too much, come together in an accident, not obeyed a flag, whatever down the road. At least Schumacher was not above the law, but I fear LH is.
It makes me laugh at the thought of what the outcome would have been if the roles were completely reversed in every aspect here. Had it been Alonso saying go toss it to team orders “repeatedly” with Ron then wacking him with 20 seconds delay to remind him who is in charge, followed by a LH craftily waiting 10 more seconds to ruin a chance at a light flying lap…although with a much better straight face lying about what he was doing in the 10 seconds….does anyone here with a straight face say LH would have been jammed 5 places and Mclaren points? My god, I wouldn’t say it is beyond reasonable to say somehow the Hamilton squad would have argued that Alonso be penalised, and or fined for disobeying team orders in an attempt to screw the boy out of his chance at pole. The Hamilton hype has ruined the industrys ability to make competant decisions! AND there is a real conflict of interest in this sport now……..Its all about the money. I could puke.
But wait there is more. Maybe one should think not about the letter of the law…but the intent. For some, interpreting a rulebook like a lawyer only makes them get lost in the intent of the rule. It takes a very good document to hold up under all conditions, and the bigger the document grows the worse it gets…until finally the lawyers are analysing and misinterpreting the law with its rediculous loopholes. Sometimes the seat of the pants gut feel is the best one, and as you spend hours renlentlessly getting lost in the rules…you do the wrong thing. Even the stewards gotta feel stupid today.
I’d say take a step back and look more at if the rules even count in this instance. We have a team taking matters into there own hands and handling things in house. Why does the governing body feel they should step in here and ruin a season.
The pit box is the teams space, it is not the racetrack. The rules around qualiying are so corrupt and prone to soft touch cheating it is a joke to apply the rules as they have been aplied here. If the team boss can not discipline a driver without the FIA telling the boss how to parent his drivers…only to punish his kids thier own way. Likens to watching a stranger discipline yours kids, and tell you how to raise them. No really.
LH himself was ok with the outcome after qualifying, having vented and owned up what he did vs what Alonso did. Only after his old man poked around and advised his son that technically it seemed he might be able to cross the team and have the team pay for their actions. LH would not even consider to do such a rediculous thing on his own accord. LH took some bad advice from a $$$ struck old man, who is not qualified to manage his sons affairs. Giving such bad big picture advice with such a narrow scope of the entire picture. He reacted like a rookie and cost the team. No doubt both have learned a big lesson here. Wanna bet Lewis makes more of his own decisions moving forward? LH told the wrong guy to swivel…should have told the old man to…not Ron.
Lou (I get paid to make decisions, but only at work)
Lou, while respect your right to an opinion, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to think that the race stewards, at the Hungarian round, are influence or frightened by the LH hype that is flooding the Brit media.
Lou said:- “At least Schumacher was not above the law, but I fear LH is.”
Come on Lou, you can’t mean that. Firstly when has LH done anything remotely unethical like Schui? And since when WASN’T Schui above the law!? My God, he rammed JV in 97 to win a WC & got off Scot free. I can’t begin to list the number of on track trangressions for which he received little or no punishment.
I repeat, Lewis did a naughty on the track in Q3 (slap on the wrist from team) Alonso committed a deliberate foul (knocked back down the grid) & Ron misrepresented the entire event to the stewards (loss of constructor points).
This is far from over for Ron as he has to appeal the penalty & will presumably spin the same b/s to the FIA court.
Anyway, let’s look forward to seeing some racing on track at Turkey……assuming LH & FA don’t have a coming together.